On topic drift: Midwifery & Childbirth

[matgb]

Hmm, a throwaway episode rec from me, an aside comment from frightened, a strongly stated dislike of an episode from el_staplador and before long we're discussing the medicalisation of childbirth and the denigration of midwifery. Um, I don't know much about this. And as most that know me know, if I don't know much, I don't have strong opinions; us filthy liberals like to have knowledge to guide our opinions.

So, um, those of you that do have opinions, one way or the other (or in other directions, naturally), feel free to join the conversation, because I'm learning stuff, even if much of it is a little beyond me.

A question for the discussion though; does the thought of childbirth scare me because a) I'm a cowardly male, b) it's the unknown that I've little knowledge of due to our fractured society or c) medical portrayal on TV makes it out to be something that is scarier than it probably ought to be portrayed?

Because I genuinely don't know. I do know that a few people I care about have gone through it recently, and it wasn't easy for any of them. Hmm...

Comments

With the caveat that I only have my own experience to go by

[miss-s-b.livejournal.com]

Uh, yeah. If it was up to me? NICE men would not be present at births. All it does is scare them out of their wits for no good reason. There is pain and horror and screaming and SHITLOADS of blood, but, as the mother, you get FLOODED with oxytocin (the hormone that gives you orgasms), and the second the child is actually out you are overwhelmed with bliss for several hours.

The man doesn't have the oxytocin; he just sees the pain and screaming and blood, with no hormonal high to dull the horror.

Nasty men should, therefore, be present at births, if only so that the mother can beat them senseless in the superhuman strength of childbirth phase.

I cracked Ian's rib

* proud smile *

Re: With the caveat that I only have my own experience to go by

[miss-s-b.livejournal.com]

See, and now I've been going and looking at my pregnancy diary and my scans and stuff and getting all broody. Damn you.

Re: With the caveat that I only have my own experience to go by

[innerbrat]

How did I not know about oxytocin in childbirth?

We need to cover this shit in school.

And it randomly occurs to me that the reason it isn't, the reason it's kept unknown, is because it's a thing for the woman to deal with, and our society is still, if not truely patriarchal, then male-orientated enough not to want to talk about Women Things.

[ms-ntropy.livejournal.com]

I'd say B) more than anything else. B) is to blame for A) which isn't really gender specific in the slightest. C) just caters to the common understanding of the whole endeavor.

If that makes any sense.

[matgb]

I think you're right, so yes, it makes sense; birth is always done elsewhere, away, and treated as something scary to an extent.

While it was more dangerous in the past, it was more understood generally, people knew about it more; I've been present at a calfing, but never been in the same building as a childbirth knowingly, which means I just haven't had contact with it. Ah well, it's likely to change at some point.

[poifaerie.livejournal.com]

Childbirth scares you because you're not made to give birth, is the way I see it. The same as when I was younger the thought of babies made me run screaming, but my attitudes have changed as my ladyhormones have kicked in.

And women were not designed/evolved/whatever-you-like to give birth lying on their backs with their feet in the air. Grrr doctors. My sister very recently had her baby, she chose a water birth and said it was actually quite nice!

[ms-ntropy.livejournal.com]

My favorite quote regarding the modern "onna back" birthing position goes something like this:

"It's the second worse position to birth. The first is while standing on one's head."

[matgb]

Aye; until this topic came up, I assumed on the back was the only real option because that's what I'd seen. To be informed vehemently that it's a bad idea surprises me, but then the partial point of this is to dispell media stupidities.

[silentgreeneyes.livejournal.com]

I, right at this moment, really do not want to have a child..
1) my mother's family are known for huge babies (I was 9lbs, my brother was nearly 12lbs and was 2 weeks early)
2) My father's side has a history of twins (my grandmother on that side was a twin, numerous cousins that side have had twins.)
3) I'm 21 right now. what would I do with a baby?
4) a few other reasons (you know them Mat)

I've heard the stories of mine and my brother's births. My mother developed diabetes during both pregnancies. Both of us ended up being ceasarians.


but anyway..
Yeah, it is an unknown thing, not much is taught about it in schools, and it should be. Sex and reproductive education is severely lacking. It's like the teachers think if the kids are taught about it, they'll go out doing it.
they do it anyway! because they don't know about it!
but, that leads me to a rant about education in general, and I'll someday do the huge ranty post about it.
maybe

[miss-s-b.livejournal.com]

Absolutely on the education thing; although it was kind of weird that my dad was my biology teacher at school and handled the sex ed, at least he did a good job.

[eldar.livejournal.com]

It is scary, but not because it's an unknown. It's scary because the first thing you ought to do is read up on what is known or attend ante-natal classes and you get told all the scary shit that can happen. So it's therefore scary because of what you do know, not what you don't.

Reality, of course, is rarely scary. In my case, it was a little bit scary, but I didn't have time to get scared enough. One minute I was driving up to the hospital to take Alexis some stuff for what was likely her last overnight stay before coming home, next I'd got a 'phone call that, no, the docs had decided Aliza was coming out by CS there and then.

I had an hour to be scared. Then I met the CS crew, got on fine with the anaesthetist, and sat through the whole procedure listening to Virgin Radio in the background. (There was at least a handy screen between me and the business end, at least. And the DJ played Sweet Child O'Mine amongst other tracks.)

I think you just have to do it (or witness it) to realise it's nothing to be too frightened about.

[el-staplador.livejournal.com]

Gosh, I provoked a discussion! *feels proud*

Hmm well, I'm not you so I can't say why it scares you. I can say why I'm not too worried - half a lifetime's exposure to the concept that birth is a normal state of affairs (not an illness). That deals with B. A (for obvious reasons) and C (because I spent my first 19 years without a TV in the first place) haven't contributed to my experience. (My problem with the common portrayal of birth on TV is that it propagates the myth that childbirth is OMG lying-on-back, screaming, bloody, can't-cope-alone, trial by ordeal of DOOM. I don't think I've ever seriously considered it to be the origin of the problem.)

I've been helping with my mother's magazine (Midwifery Matters, publication of the Association of Radical Midwives) for as long as she's had the editorship, starting with 'this picture is upside down' at age 9 or so, moving through 'this sentence makes no sense at all' and 'this piece seems to have no author' to 'shall I make up some headings for this web debate you've stuck in'? Through it all I've been growing in confidence that, should I come to do such a thing, there is no immediately obvious reason why I shouldn't be able to. I saw the birth of my youngest brother when I was almost 11 - this was a home birth, my mother had explained that she'd probably appear to be in great pain and also that she would probably not pay much (if any) attention to me until after the thing was over, and I was fine. The only thing that scared me was the placenta, which no one had remembered to tell me about.

Oh, I've read some horror stories too, but a surprising (and distressing) number of them have been 'had I not been emotionally blackmailed into having x medical intervention, which I later found wasn't actually necessary but merely the policy of this particular hospital, I might have had a normal birth'.

Things do go wrong, accidents will happen even in the best regulated birth plans, and there is no way on earth I would dispense with the wonderful potential for necessary intervention that we have, but I think that the general perception of childbirth is that it's a dangerous business best undertaken under constant medical surveillance, and that's simply not true.

Thinking about it, it's probably a little of A, B, and C, but the problem begins with B, because that's where C at least springs from. A, of course, means that you're unlikely ever to find out much about the process without either being involved in it yourself or deliberately going out looking, because B no one's ever bothered to tell you, but the problem of misinformation is by no means unique to the male gender. I know that even as a female I'm fairly rare - many women my age, those who have yet to give birth, seem to look on it as a Time of Terror to come. I can only think of one of my friends who's not seen it that way, and she was a home birth herself. From what I've seen from the magazine, it's often only once a woman has had a bad birth experience in hospital that she starts looking - and has to look very hard, because the medical establishment is reluctant to let her out of their hands, particularly if she had problems last time - for an alternative way of doing it second time around. There seem to be a fair number of 30 year olds who think my way, but precious few 22 year olds.

[miss-s-b.livejournal.com]

I honestly think that midwife-led units in hospitals are the way to go. That way the medical establishment is on hand if you need them, but is kept out of the way if you don't need them.

[matgb]

It has to be said, your upbringing and exposure does make you a fairly unique case, but I'm definitely grateful for the perspective, and the discussion; I've learnt a lot from it, and the whole idea is a lot less scary now.

I am also aware that, for various medical reasons, the two births I followed the most recently were for people who had medical complications that required hospital/medical support, so that also biased my perceptions a lot I suspect—fairly serious diabetes is not helpful when you're expecting :-(

[0ct0pus.livejournal.com]

The single greatest influence on most peoples perception of childbirth is that episode of "Only Fools and Horses" and it is absolutely nothing like that at all.

I was there through quite a recent birth, from what I could see it's only as medicalised as the mother wants it to be. We were lucky enough to be based at a midwife-led unit, which are apparently a dying breed which suited my partner well as she wasn't keen on having opiates plumbed through a hole in her spine. As it happened she was still on a drip because she had to be induced but even then she was encouraged to move about a bit, sit on a chair, lie on a bean bag. It was all about where she felt most comfortable.

The bit that struck me is that it came in two chunks. There was the contractions, where the uterus sorts itself out, and these REALLY FUCKING HURT LIKE BUGGERY from what I can see. Then there was the actually pushing the baby out, which wasn't half so bad from what she said.

Then there was a baby. That bit was brilliant!

Stop me if this all gets a bit TMI...

[miss-s-b.livejournal.com]

Midwife-led units rule, yes. I was in one of those too. I'm only sad that my birth was so quick that they didn't have time to run the water in the birthing pool.

Interestingly, though, I had the opposite reaction re pain. The contractions weren't that bad, and it was just embarrassing when I shat myself; but the actual pushing her out was horrible. But then I was a forty minute labour, and it took them over an hour to sew me back together again afterwards. She was overdue, but when she decided she was coming out, that was it, she was coming out, and if bits of me got in the way they'd be hurt.

[matgb]

Aye, I actually found reading/listening to your posts while it was happening to be very interesting, it was great to get a perspective so fresh and different. Media portrayals, I've learnt from this, are really bad, and that bothers me a lot.

And little kids are growing on me with exposure, I used to like dealing with teens but not 'before they can talk' kids, now I'm not so bad.

[lostinarden.livejournal.com]

I'm utterly repulsed by pregnancy and childbirth. I'm also incredibly selfish and put my career above everything else in my life and am extremely poor. I don't even particularly like kids, despite having worked with them extensively.

And I'm a woman. My husband and I are childfree. Full stop. And don't tell me I'll change my mind (both Matgb and anyone else) because it's extremely offensive.

On that note, midwifery and home births are illegal in some states in the US because of the control the healthcare system has over the government...which I think is fucked up beyond all belief.

[matgb]

I've got a few friends who are childfree—to be honest I treat it in the same way as I treat religion; you are completely entitled to your opinion, I respect your decision, but I think you're completely wrong.

But you're honest and upfront about it, which is fine.

Midwifery is illegal in parts of the US? Ouch, the mind boggles.

[misscoollinda.livejournal.com]

I think the option of midwifery should be available to those that want it. As for me, when I had my first and only child, I wanted to be in a hospital because I had no idea what to expect, other than from all the horrible stories I heard.

[absinthecity.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's anything to do with being male. I'm absolutely petrified of the idea, despite the fact that I very much want to have children, and am female.

I think what makes me upset and gets me even more scared about it that even though it's a (very) painful thing, it's not completely taken as read that you'll have effective pain medication. The feminist in me does wonder if this would be the case if men had babies. You would never have an operation done without anaesthetic, even though many would cause less pain. This is changing I think - most women now have epidurals (I think?) but I remember not 10 years ago it was considered unusual and my own mother would tell me it was a bad plan because of risks (I don't think it's that risky at all)

TV portayal is quite possibly a factor - it's generally not good. but all said, I think it's just a bloody scary idea!

[arosoff.livejournal.com]

hehe, you've been reading my horror stories ;)

Epidural is common but not quite standard. There is some risk from it. It's spinal anaesthesia. So occasionally you'll get a dural tap (resulting in a seriously nasty headache) and there's always the theoretical possibility of paralysis. Babies also tend to be a bit sleepy from the drugs, and are slower to breastfeed. It can also slow down labour and affect mum's ability to push.

These aren't severe enough to contraindicate epidurals totally but they are enough to encourage a little bit of caution. My own thinking on epidurals (having had one, albeit for surgery!) is that they're a useful tool but shouldn't be the first line of pain relief. There are a lot of techniques that can be used to make things easier (breathing, massage, different positions, hypnosis, water) and they should be exhausted first. You've got little to lose by trying and you never know, you might be one of the mums with a quick and easy labour!

[strangefrontier.livejournal.com]

I think the only way I could ever be persuaded to have a child is under general anaesthetic. For the whole nine months. And maybe till the kid's old enough to leave home.

[eclexys.livejournal.com]

My fiance, the doctor, pointed out that tons of women used to die in childbirth. She's been present for at least one death during childbirth... as an intern. (ie. She wasn't the doctor in charge, and anyway, the story I remember was something like an anyeurism (sp?) or something, so it wasn't like much could be done, but... anyway, she didn't do it. She's also done caesarean sections, which are all too common here. Like, WAY too commonly done here, for convenience's sake.)

Hmmm. Now, if childbirth wasn't medicalized, and women died in childbirth at the rate they used to, at least according to the impression we commonly get nowadays, people would be complaining about how doctors don't give a sh*t about women, wouldn't they? I have no experience, but the way I see it, either way is risky, but doctors can cut you open and sew your insides together and that kind of "holy-sh*t!" stuff if it's necessary, so at the very least they should be around somewhere in the same building to give you a fighting chance if something does go horribly wrong. Because things sometimes do, and even 0.05% does happen sometimes.

Funny. In Korea, all the foreigners I know who've had kids here just struggle to find a doctor who won't take the baby away and feed it barley tea (first thing) or any number of other ridiculous things. Midwives, here, I've never heard a word about. Then again, everyone here has healthcare.

[matgb]

Everyone here does as well; admittedly, it's not the best, but it is free.

But yeah, medicalisation has undoubtedly made things a lot safer, but knowledge, hygeine practices and similar have been a big contribution to that, I suspect it's over-medicalised, but I can't comment completely. Hence the thread.

Some Korean attitudes really are weird at times, but that's the whole point isn't it. I got on with them the best when I worked at the Tefl school. Mostly.