Darwin, religion and choice

[matgb]

Today is one of those birthday things. I knew it was coming up, because the BHA invited me to their annual event but a) I'd have had to pay and b) it was in London, so have fun all that do go, I'm sure it'll be good. Fortunately, bagrec reminded me this morning, so I half inched this image from him . Evolution was, I used to think, something that we generally all just accepted, sure, there were a few minority extremists that thought otherwise, but anyone with a decent education, including the entire Catholic Church, just know it to be real, right? Unfortunately the internet reveals this to be untrue, and that someone who is an avowed Creationist has a good chance at the Republican nomination (although no chance at the actual Presidency) is something that really does bother me. Fortunately, there are voices of reason out there, including my better half, and we all know what Theory means, etc, right? Ah well, if you need a bit more explanation, ask a skientist, I recommend Debi the evolutionary morphologist if you don't have another one handy. I'm sure her hangover will allow her to answer questions in her comments ;-)

In other news, Anonymous vs Scientology had a good weekend of protests it seems, deathboy went to the London protest and has a good report, and the Phoenix protest got /.ed. There's a little bit of me that dislikes the thing as a whole bunch of people, including people that have their own personal different brand of sky fairy, are ganging up on the Scientologists—I'm all for mocking all religions, but a dog pile seems a bit off when your allies are also batshit. Then I remember that they're Scientologists and that it's therefore OK anyway, right?

Last up, I've been promising various people for ages a post on markets, economics, and why I like them despite being a lot of a lefty, but while that's still on the planned list with a bunch of other stuff, Tim Harford continues his climb up my "top people" list by writing a post about why markets can at times fail, and how analysis of these "externalities" can help them get back on track and do a lot of good; "Green taxes" and similar are a method of dealing with externalities, and are generally much better than simply banning stuff.

Right, that's it for now, I have a fiancée to go snuggle for a bit before shrublette gets home...

Comments

[thapunkprincess.livejournal.com]

I hate this double-standard about Scientology. It's a crazy religion/cult (which is a meaningless distinction anyway - a religion is just a more accepted, mass cult), but no more or less valid than any other religion. Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Scientology. Brainwashing? Check. Indoctrination? Check. Dubious fund-raising? Check.

Scientology seems preferable because it contains cool stuff about aliens, it's far more tolerant on social issues, and ultimately the beliefs seem more sensible (relatively!) than the shit the major religions teach. But when it comes down to it I don't see much difference between a crazed fundamentalist Scientologist and a mild-mannered Christian in terms of their beliefs. They're all fucking morons.

If people are going to protest, they should stop picking on one specific religion. In the case of Scientologists it's just because it's not generally accepted as a world religion. In the case of Islam there's all the tricky connotations of colonialism and racism. Just protest religion itself!

[ginasketch.livejournal.com]

Scientology seems preferable because it contains cool stuff about aliens, it's far more tolerant on social issues, and ultimately the beliefs seem more sensible (relatively!) than the shit the major religions teach. But when it comes down to it I don't see much difference between a crazed fundamentalist Scientologist and a mild-mannered Christian in terms of their beliefs. They're all fucking morons.

I don't know how to reply to this without causing a shitstorm.

[ginasketch.livejournal.com]

Or rather, maybe I should just say:

I could understand this sentiment about fundamentalists, people trying to shove religion down other people's throats etc: but I have a number of Christian, Muslim and Jewish friends who do not do that to people, and I don't appreciate them being boxed as "fucking morons."

[paulgregory.livejournal.com]

I agree, there is a massive difference between crazed fundamentalists and the mild-mannered. A mild-mannered Christian (or whatever) may only have a socially convenient alignment to that particular religion. It is wrong to assume that they have independently researched and arrived at the conclusion that the beliefs of Christianity offer the most logical explanations of all things, or even that they have ever considered that they have a choice. The specifics of the religion may be unimportant compared to the social and support networks that are intertwined with it.
However, human nature means that if his alignment is challenged by people who are *not* mild-mannered, he will defend his identity as a Christian. People don't like to be told they're wrong, even if they're not entirely convinced themselves.

What Scientology has going for it are two things:
1) As a modern invention, it has not been directly contradicted by thousands of years of discovery.
2) It eases people in, rather than shouting "ner ner de ner ner, everything you hold true is wrong".

A protest against religion will achieve little. A campaign to recruit people into the same mindset has been proven time and time again to work. The first step in that is to act like nice people.

[foxfirefey]

1) As a modern invention, it has not been directly contradicted by thousands of years of discovery.

It's directly contradicted by recent history, however, as Hubbard lied about important things.

[thapunkprincess.livejournal.com]

But they are, let's face it. They may be lovely people, but there's no religious person on earth who isn't a complete dunce.

[thapunkprincess.livejournal.com]

Actually, include those in heaven as well in that statement.

[ginasketch.livejournal.com]

I'll be sure to pass that on to the friend I have with the 175 point IQ.

[thapunkprincess.livejournal.com]

See above.

:)

[ginasketch.livejournal.com]

and?

[thapunkprincess.livejournal.com]

And two minutes after I mentioned your reference to this super-intelligent, argument-winning, sky-fairy-loving cultist, you make ANOTHER one. It's kind of funny you see.

Face it: Jews, Muslims, Christians, Scientologists... if they are supposedly intelligent (by design or evolution) then there's still something 'missing'. Some kind of mental illness at the heart of it, most probably.

[ginasketch.livejournal.com]

It's funny why? I have Jewish, Christin and Muslim friends.

None of them are as ignorant and self righteous as you. Good day.

Quick! If you act now you can get the last word in!

[thapunkprincess.livejournal.com]

Nah, they are far more ignorant. Religious people tend to be incredibly ignorant and I very much doubt your furry multicultural social sphincter is any different.

[thapunkprincess.livejournal.com]

Hehe, with reference to my last post I wuz just thinking what a brilliant t-shirt that would make for your creationist friend.

'Intelligent... by design'.

[harry-t-skull.livejournal.com]

and you being an obnoxious narrow minded, intolerant mare came from nature or nuture?

[matgb]

nature or nuture?

*cough*

If you're going to insult people directly in my comments box, try and get the insults at least spelt correctly?

Also? The GP is very good at asserting an extreme position and playing advocate, makes the discussions more interesting, it's not like you haven't seen it before elsewhere.

[ginasketch.livejournal.com]

I'd say it's possible to play Devil's Advocate without being unnecessarily rude.

[thapunkprincess.livejournal.com]

I'm just a blank slate for you to write on.

[matgb]

a religion is just a more accepted, mass cult

I concur—like I said in the post, I object to all religions generally (hence the big A in the sidebar) but in this case there are many documented cases of abuse, etc (as Gina refers to above). So treat them in the same way as a Xian sect of the same size, etc, is a valid response.

But yeah, religion not hte best plan, generally, hence the icon.

[foxfirefey]

Well, technically they're protesting the Church of Scientology and not Scientology itself. It's a very fine distinction, true, and not all of them are making it. But there are people outside of the CoS who practice scientology, and they're not the ones getting protested.

The difference between the crazed fundamentalist Scientologist and the mild-mannered Christian is that the mild mannered Christian won't attempt to utterly destroy you if you criticize their religion. The mild mannered Christian has not been trained in bullbaiting, either.

[ginasketch.livejournal.com]

Gracias.

[foxfirefey]

Reading all the ex-Scientology stories makes me oh so sad. The two are really not even close at all.

I mean, I was raised Mormon. I'm not now. Does it cause some stress here and there? Yes. But my family still loves me and we are very close.

[ginasketch.livejournal.com]

Yeah I'm not denying other religions can cause strife, i was raised Catholic, and BOY would I rather forget that.

But it works for some people, and I got the extreme end of it at any rate. I have a Catholic friend and she's never once tried to indoctrinate me.

[thapunkprincess.livejournal.com]

No difference in terms of their beliefs was what I said.

[foxfirefey]

Yes, that's what you said. And I listed terms of belief that are different.

The Scientology believes that critics are "suppressive people" who must be stopped, destroyed, or disconnected from, at all cost.

The mild mannered Christian does not believe that because you are critical of Christianity, you must be destroyed. This means I have fruitful and productive friendships with mild mannered Christians, even though I am sometimes blasphemous.

I don't believe that because both of their beliefs are fantasies, they are equivalent. I don't think protesting the Church of Scientology because of the aggressive, abusive bullshit they pull is some kind of double standard. It's not as if the Intarnets don't pull plenty of mockdom on Christianity.

[foxfirefey]

*scientologist

[thapunkprincess.livejournal.com]

Of course they're equivalent! Sure, they have different beliefs but on the dirty brown level of bullshit neither exactly smell of roses.

[foxfirefey]

I admire the expansive width of the brush you paint with, sir.