Joss Whedon a rapist and Firefly irredeemably sexist?

[matgb]

Um, favour, having read this screed, can one of the lesbian feminist sisters reading this, or indeed anyone with an interest^[1], especially those of you that said you liked Firefly please confirm my suspicion that A Rapist's View of the World: Joss Whedon and Firefly is in fact an ill-informed biased rant of the sort that can give decent feminists a bad name?

Because, y'know, while I'm happy to accept that it contains some inadvertent sexisms, that the idea of the Companions Guild is going to split opinion and that nobody is perfect, I was sorta of the opinion that, for an SF TV series, Firefly was actually pretty good about gender and race issues, and I most certainly don't think that Zoe was objectified from the get go. But, as in all things, I welcome sane alternate positions and am always open to persuasion. Just that, well, that rant has put me off giving the positions put forward any credence.

ETA: Well, she's deleting comments all over the place, not just made by you guys but also from those made by people coming in from all over the place. Bloglines gives her over 100 incoming links, Blogger Blogsearch gives her 144 (Technorati proves its uselessness yet again by giving 17). Best I've seen is this, courtesy of ladyegreen in the comments here. Biggest point I've seen raised that I didn't really highlight in my initial post is that by declaring Joss (and Wash) to be rapists for the reason she states is to belittle those who have actually experienced rape and devalue their experiences dealing with it. Given a few people I care about a great deal are included in that number, it really annoys me when that sort of extremist argument is used. Ah well, lunatic of the day and all that—she's censoring most of the comments that are put in, and letting some in from some people but not all of them, her journal, but I really don't see the point myself.

---

[1] Because, y'know, I tend to try to take the opinon of everyone seriously until and unless they prove their opinions to have no merit, and don't really like judging based on gender or sexuality, I find groupthink to be a bad idea regardless. Don't know about you.

Via James (again), who doesn't share my opinion on the merits of the show.

Comments

[rowanberries.livejournal.com]

It's bullshit.

Did this person not see... um, any of the Zoe and Wash relationship? With her being the one to drag him off for sex, quite apart from the bit where she can, and I quote 'kill [him] with her pinky'?

Fucking idiots making feminists look bad... *grumble*

[matgb]

Apparently she watched every single episode twice and read every script, so she must've missed the bits where Zoe was quite blatently the strongest character there &c.

But thanks for confirming my thoughts, got the notification just as I was shutting down.

[miss-s-b.livejournal.com]

I can see an argument that Firefly contains some sexism, but Zoe isn't it.

[raven-oreilly.livejournal.com]

Yeah, definitely not Zoe.

[tyrell.livejournal.com]

I think lines like
"Zoe: Sir, I think you have a problem with your brain being missing."
show that using the title "Sir" isn't submissive.

But then, the author would have actually had to watch the show to see that.

[matgb]

But she did. She says so, she makes that very very clear.

[tyrell.livejournal.com]

I like to think she saw the images but was distracted at vital moments. Like, all of it. The alternative would be some kind of brain defect.

[ms-ntropy.livejournal.com]

Friend of mine sent me the link to this "essay" this afternoon. Normally something like this would get me riled seven ways 'til Sunday, but all I could do was laugh.

Joss rapes his wife because Zoe calls Mal, "Sir"?
Wow. That...that's some solid equal rights thinking right there.
I mean, it's not like he was her commanding officer during the war or anything. And it's not like both Zoe and Mal aren't still fighting that war, even though their side lost. Goodness knows they only wear brown coats/vests for the aesthetic of it.

I'll grant the existence of legalized prostitution as something to question, but only because it's easier than trying to reason with someone who has "pro-prostitution" and "pro-porn" as "banned topics" in their user info.

People who automatically delete dissenting arguments aren't looking for foster discussion or make any sort of tangible social change. They're looking to start a fight and then play the martyr/persecuted card as quickly as possible, and I for one don't have the energy to deal with twatwaffles like that.

[matgb]

A look again at the post reveals that the comments made by those below have either been deleted or not cleared. I hadn't read her profile, owch. Pretty much makes it clear men aren't welcome to comment at all.

Discussed with SB last night that Zoe being cast as a senior "Independent" when they were clearly a confederate analogy may also have some significance, but the nuance of that sort of position just isn't worth even trying to go into with her. File under ignore and go away I guess.

[ms-ntropy.livejournal.com]

...
Wow, how sad is it that I hadn't really ever made the US Civil War connection. I knew my Northern/Yankee bias was strong...

[matgb]

Really? Um, Bing? Did you actually, y'know, watch the show?

Sorry, the ACW is one of my preferred periods, I suspect it's part of the appeal to me of the background, but yeah, old war heroes who lost were an essential part of a lot of westerns, so it was deliberate to play it up, think I read an interview or two where it was mentioned.

[ms-ntropy.livejournal.com]

You're not coming at this show with a Yankee American Public School education under your belt.

I like to chalk up my oversight to good ol' fashioned cognitive dissonance.

[matgb]

I guess—sometimes when I say things like "you do know the Confederates were right, constitutionally" and "it wasn't about slavery" I get some funny looks from those educated to worship Lincoln as a great man (he was, socialist to) and "the man that freed the slaves".

If you're interested, this is one of my favourite history books (not on ACW, but all of history), very well written and gets across a lot of the background fairly well. Saw copies in every bookstore I went in while over there so odds are getting it cheap'll be easy.

[sylo-tode.livejournal.com]

People invariably find what they're looking for (except for Bono, of course).

[matgb]

Did you have to make that pun? SB will be repeating it ad nauseum now :-(

[drjon.livejournal.com]

The essay seems extremist, sensationalistic, misrepresentative and disingenuous to me, however I suspect I'd be ever so slightly more sympathetic to the writer if I were female.

But possibly not by very much.

Unless I was a Radical Feminist Separatist.

[matgb]

I suspect I'd be ever so slightly more sympathetic to the writer if I were female.

Judging from some of the other comments so far, doesn't look like it—her stuff in the comments about sex reveal her to have some interesting attitudes there as well. Apparently by her definition I'm a rapist. Which devalues the experiences of the actual rape victims around here quite a lot. Ah well.

[paulgregory.livejournal.com]

Your suspicion is right. I've commented there, which may or may not get past the blinkered moderation:

--SUBMITTED COMMENT BEGINS--

I can see that you are debunking Joss's claim to be a feminist by applying your own definitions of feminism and rape, but having read both your article and your comments, I don't understand the title.

Your title is:
"A Rapist's View of the World: Joss Whedon and Firefly".

but you say:
I would argue that most 'sex' between men and women, in the contemporary 'sex-positive', pornographic, male-supremacist culture, is rape.
and thus define consensual sex between Joss Whedon and his wife as rape.

So how is that title different from saying "A Man's View of the World", except for the shock value and the belittlement of women who have been physically forced to have non-consensual sex?

--SUBMITTED COMMENT ENDS--

--UNSUBMITTED WIBBLE STARTS--

In general, if you sit down with a box-set of a TV show to watch for the first time with the objective of deciding whether the showrunner is ANYTHING other than "a good/bad showrunner", then you're missing the entire point of television.

If you actually "watched the whole series twice, read through every single script, read through Serenity about five times, counted the lines that men spoke and women spoke, then worked for about three weeks trying to write this" having established previously that you thought the show was boring and that you weren't prepared to let the show explain in what ways the future is both different to and a mirror of the present day, and you're not prepared to even once consider that the future as depicted might not be Joss' personal fantasy world...

...then oh my god you need to get out more or at least look at some different websites.

Joss may say he's a feminist, but that doesn't mean that his definition of feminist has to match this fucktard's, who has such a broad definition of rape that I find it offensive. I quoted one example above, here's another.

There have been a few discussions recently in the rad fem blogosphere debating whether all male initiated sex is rape, given that women are politically, socially and economically subordinate to men. So, in my understanding of Joss Whedon as a rapist is hinges on my definition of rape. I would argue that most 'sex' between men and women, in the contemporary 'sex-positive', pornographic, male-supremacist culture, is rape.

OMG, remind me never to stumble into the rad fem blogosphere. Oh wait.. I already did. Damn you MatGB for introducing me to the crazed thought processes of what I can only assume to be an Ugly Woman Not Having Sex With Any Man Any Time Soon.

And judging from "a man should never invade a woman’s personal space", has issues with her little brother coming into her bedroom.

So. By redefining terms to the point where they no longer serve any purpose, we can claim that a respected man rapes his wife at least 50% of the time. It doesn't really get us anywhere though, does it?

As for the stuff she has to say about "a woman of colour" - it's just crass. In the comments she happily says "I hate men" just because of something two particular men say in a DVD commentary.

Mat - you don't like judging based on gender or sexuality. Nor do I. But that's all this fucktard does! She constantly assumes all members of a given group must be essentially the same, whether it's men, women, whites, blacks, feminists or whores - and should be essentially the same through space, time, fiction and non-fiction. She's nuts.

[tyrell.livejournal.com]

I would argue that most 'sex' between men and women, in the contemporary 'sex-positive', pornographic, male-supremacist culture, is rape.

Unbelievable. She does know Andrea Dworkin is dead, right?

[tyrell.livejournal.com]

Holy crap, apparently not:

"Andrea Dworkin and John Stoltenberg. That would be one that I would call a 'happy, healthy, positive, mutually respectful, mutually loving, heterosexual relationship'. Umm... I'm still thinking. I don't think I could name any others."

[matgb]

that's all this fucktard does

I know, scary isn't it. But from her comments policy, we're not welcome (yours has either been deleted or not unscreened). There are some dissenting comments on there, but they all appear to be from female users.

Which essentially means she's become what she attacks, and is creating her own problems. Gah!

[baseballchica03.livejournal.com]

Let me just premise my statements by saying that I don't like Firefly. I tried it out because several of my friends and people on my flist spoke very highly of it, but I was not a fan. It wasn't nearly as funny as it liked to think it was, and I couldn't really grab onto the characters at all.

That being said, the girl is completely batshit. It's her superfeminist, read-misogyny-into-everything attitude that gives functional feminists a bad name.

The first scene opens in a war with Mal and Zoe. Zoe runs around calling Mal ‘sir’ and taking orders off him. I roll my eyes. Not a good start.
Um... does she not understand how military organizations work? If she were higher ranking, he'd be calling her ma'am. It has nothing to do with gender, it has to do with bureaucratic hierarchy.

On Kaylee and the duct tape: Hell, I'd duct tape her mouth shut. She's fucking annoying. Shut up, girl. If it were a jabbering male, I'd have the same response. They're in a situation where they're hiding. They need to be quiet. SHUT UP = duct tape

And the prostitute wasn't being raped. She willingly took money for her services. We can go on about whether that's right or wrong or whatever, but it wasn't forced.

Let me just say now that I have never personally known of a healthy relationship between a white man and a woman of colour.

The first rule of science is that anecdotes != fact. Proof of existence is not enough to say that all relationships between white men and black women are inherently bad.

[matgb]

It's her superfeminist, read-misogyny-into-everything attitude that gives functional feminists a bad name.

I concur, but you know what it's like when you encounter something so off the wall you need a reality check? I just needed confirmation that it wasn't me going nuts.

does she not understand how military organizations work?

They're heirarchical, male dominated (unless there's a token "sidechick") and WRONG, ergo they don't need to be understood, merely condemned.

Ah well. A ranting loon is always good to give a sense of perspective.

[tyrell.livejournal.com]

I wrote this:

I see that you're passionate about this, but I think you couldn't be more wrong.

Zoe runs around calling Mal ‘sir’ and taking orders off him
It becomes very clear in the show that Zoe frequently says "No" to Mal, that they will risk their lives for each other, and that he was her commanding officer in the war. She's SUCH a strong character that you have no problem believing she could well have been his instead if it had worked out that way, and that she absolutely CHOOSES to follow him. But still takes no crap from him.

As for her relationship with Wash, it is repeatedly clear that he is mystified and constantly aware of her devotion to him, and knows just how lucky he is. Zoe *is* the most 2D character in terms of only being a soldier, but that's because she is written as being on alert at all times. When she breaks that (such as relaxing in the scenes in bed with Wash) you can see that she absolutely loves him, and still runs the show in that relationship. At all times she is doing what she wants.

Does Inara stop him from calling her a whore? Nope. She just goes on smiling and being gracious. So he calls her a whore again. Lovely man this Mal is, dontcha think?
He calls her it again because it clearly the only thing that hurts her, and he loves her and hates what she does. She defends it on every academic level as a respectable profession in that universe, but knows that in the end he is right and has no answer for that. Whedon does not glamourise it - he shows that you can dress it up in silks and respectability, but it still hurts the people involved. The fact that she is by far the most respectable person on the ship and the reason they can get into richer areas at all, is meant as irony.

Most of all, this edge of the universe is SUPPOSED to be backward, rough and male-dominated. It's clear that the men are often stupid or shortsighted, and there is almost no point at which the women are not empowered if not actually in charge. Whenever any of them defer responsibility to the Captain or others, it is a conscious choice and balanced by plenty of times when they don't.

[tyrell.livejournal.com]

It was only that polite because I figured being rude at this point would be counter-productive, but she's absolutely full of crap. She clearly spends her life looking for ways to cry "male domination and patriarchy OMG!". It's like the facebook group a friend of mine just joined: "Pornography is inherently abusive to women". Bullshit, that's just 'bad American pornography' that makes a virtue of being abusive to women. Just because 80% of the industry is too unimaginative to stop pandering to neanderthals doesn't mean that images of sex aimed at men or women are inherently abusive to either.

Firefly makes a lot of arguments for Companions giving prostitution some respectability, and for the act itself not to be inherently damaging. And at the same time it shows the training schools, and the rough outback whorehouses. It never shies away from the fact that these people are being trained to make others happy (including fine arts, geisha teamaking etc) as a commercial service and from a worryingly young age.

But to see the *relationships* as sexist in that particular series takes a degree of blindness that is quite stunning.

[matgb]

Was it submitted as screened, or has she just deleted it? Given the number of incoming links, I'm guessing she must've deleted a whole lot of "you're nuts" comments as well.

But yeah, I agree—hadn't really thought through the implications of Inara's status that much though, danke.

[tyrell.livejournal.com]

Screened, and since it disagrees with her it probably won't get through...

[tinuvielberen.livejournal.com]

Firefly was cowboys in space. What's not to love?

The cowboy genre is about cowboys. Whedon's version had more cowgirls than is usual, as well as the compulsory hooker with a heart of gold.

The cowboy genre is usually sexist. But I don't think Firefly's take on it was particularly sexist. The most appallingly stupid character was Jayne. The most ninja bad-ass was River. Simon was the most sensitive; Walsh the most neurotic. Mal was the captain, but his power depended in a major way on Zoe.

Inara was - meh. Inara annoyed me, and not because she was a hooker. She was just boring. Same goes for the preacher.

Is prostitution anti-feminist? Probably. Does including a prostitute character in a story make the author a rapist?

Earth logic says...no.

The author of this essay is just so out there on so many points. Her definition of rape is, I think, insulting to women who really have suffered sexual violence. This definition of a rapist is any man who "pressures a woman for sex" doesn't make sense. If a man is more interested in having sex than I am, who's in control of the situation? Who decides when or if sex occurs? Me, that's who.

If "pressuring for sex" translates to "have sex with me or I'll beat you/throw you out of the house/deny you food", then yes, that's rape. But I don't recall any relationships like that in Firefly; or at least none such relationships were presented in a positive way.

Probably no work of fiction will ever satisfy the author of that essay. Fictional characters must have weaknesses in order to make a story interesting. If a character is female, this will be interpreted as "undermining." If the female characters have no flaws, they're "objectified." No one can win.

[tyrell.livejournal.com]

This definition of a rapist is any man who "pressures a woman for sex" doesn't make sense

Shit, I think my brain's stupidity-censor must have filtered that out on the way through. There's probably no point in trying to reason with that extreme a starting view.

I agree with you about the men in firefly though - Mal, Jayne and Wash are clearly the more clueless of the crew in most situations, and Simon and Book are not typical men for the culture that's being portrayed.

[matgb]

That was in the comments (although it was the comment that was quoted in the link post I saw) and yeah, by her definition, I raped SB this morning. Strange, don't think she looked at it that way.

[raven-oreilly.livejournal.com]

Mal was the captain, but his power depended in a major way on Zoe.

Exactly. They were a duo in a sense. When you watch the episode where the old war buddy comes back and his smuggling organs, you get to see more flashbacks of them during the war. Zoe was the sniper to Mal's front line in terms of fighting strategy. They are a team.

Mal's command position really does largely depend on her because of her "warrior woman" status. If she didn't support Mal 9 times out of 10, his leadership diminishes and guys like Jayne (who really doesn't have any leadership quality, but bitches about not being in charge) get out of hand.

And in "War Stories," when Wash and Mal are being tortured, that whole episode is about Wash's issues with Zoe following Mal's orders and Mal yells in an answer to one of his orders that she didn't obey with "SHE MARRIED YOU!" (And Zoe didn't like Wash at first when Mal first hired him as the pilot.)

[matgb]

Aye, of all the characters, I think Zoe is probably the strongest (not just in the actual physical sense either), so to dismiss her as she does because she's a black woman is, well, wrong.

[matgb]

no work of fiction will ever satisfy the author of that essay

I suspect you're right. I share SB's concerns over his next series, but given "paid for" by the actress playing the female lead, it looks like emancipation means women make choices some people don't like.

So Joss'll be blamed for that too, he'll have duped Eliza into doing it using his, um, geeky cuteness?

I'm distinctly in the "banning it hasn't worked, so let's legalise and make it as safe as possible" camp re prostitution, and that makes the most sense from me in a female perspective. Given that means she rules out my opinion from the beginning (profile has comment rules), I think she's pretty much ruled out getting any allies in her politics.

Ah well, without extremists life would be very dull.

[innerbrat]

I read a couple of paragraphs.i read some of the comments here.

Um.

DO I HAVE TO READ ANY MORE?

[matgb]

Nah, Bing and other covered it. IT's refreshing to see someone so far away from your worldview that it's scary, I just wish this sort of extremism wasn't "our" notional side in the big picture, makes us all look bad even if we disassociate.

Reading comments this morning have cleared my mind a bit. Just...

[innerbrat]

I have no problem, as a feminist and someone who strives for sexual liberation, nor as someone who has been and has known, actual victims of sexual assault, disassociating myself from someone who can't tell the difference between sex and rape.

[blue-condition.livejournal.com]

(1) I don't like Whedon's shows, full stop.
(2) Some of the original poster's statements made sense although she missed key points like it being a ex military spacecraft on which hierarchy prevailed.
(3) the comments about Whedon's personal life were defamatory/libellous.

[matgb]

Apart from 1), I concur—the US has different standards for defamation and I suspect Joss'd just laugh, but she's a bit beyond the pale really.

World'd be a dull place if we all liked the same things. SB still thinks she'll persuade me about Iron Maiden...

[pmoodie.livejournal.com]

Good grief. I'm afraid I didn't manage to read all of the post, so I can't really offer a detailed response to that person's opinions.

But from what I read, it seemed a lot like hysterical claptrap.

No doubt my view of such matters is irredeemably skewed by my heterosexual maleness, but I really can't see how anyone can accuse Joss Whedon of being a misogynist.

I suspect the writer of that post believes that anything created by heterosexual males is automatically an affront to feminism. All that remains is to look for some dubious evidence to back up their ridiculous prejudices.

[matgb]

I really can't see how anyone can accuse Joss Whedon of being a misogynist.

I can see legitimate accusations of sexism, mostly inadvertent, and SB has some legit concerns about "josstitutes" and idealisations of prostitution, but actual misogyny is just not there.

Extremists. Gotta love 'em.

[requiem2adream.livejournal.com]

... Yeah I had to stop reading when I got to her bastardised character portrait of Inara, and frankly I'm surprised I got that far. How can anyone get the character traits/motivations so hideously wrong?

[ladyegreen.livejournal.com]

Everyone from my journal said the woman was a little bit touched in the head. (http://ladyegreen.livejournal.com/680402.html)

One of my f-listers found this rebuttal essay (http://molly-commas.livejournal.com/45170.html) that I thought addressed that particular bit of internet craziness well.

(The comments on her journal indicate that others in the firefly community also posted rebuttals.)

[matgb]

I'd read comments on your post when it came past on my friends page, and a fair few others have also linked to it and got similar reactions. The link is new though, thank you, I'll edit that in I think.

Heh, if she was trying to get the treatment of a 'top blogger' her blogpulse rating the last few days would've been quite good. But I someone don't think she's even aware of the incoming.

[kiplingkat7.livejournal.com]

I too have submitted logical point by point refutations of her arguments only to have them deleted. What I love about this kind of feminist is that she obviously does *not* want equality, she want entitlement.

Example, she says that Zoe is subservient and abused because she let Mal tell her to "shut up" in the first episode. How many times did Mal tell Jayne to shut up? Does that mean Jayne is subservient and objectified? It o.k. to be rude to men, but all women must be handled like fragile China?

She called women on the show "punching bags" and calls attention to "male fists in women’s faces", for every first that was in Zoe's face, two or three were in Mals...but that someone is o.k. with this person.

Allecto points to the character a Saffron as Joss Whedon "demonizing women". So obviously, she believes that a single protrayal of a woman as a villain is portraying all women as villains, so no woman should ever be portrayed as a villain.

She also cannot seem to realize that the entire point of War Stories was to deal with Wash's insecurity and lingering questions the audience had about the nature of Zoe and Mal relationship: Zoe is Mal's best friend and they are not interested in each other sexually.

Imagine that, a male and female friendship of mutual respect without sex being involved.

And somehow this is wrong?

So who is the one actually being sexist here?

Plus as pointed out by other posters are anti-miscegenation statements are quite racist. and the misuse of the word rape does far more harm to women's causes that a positive portrayal of a courtesan on TV.

[matgb]

I agree, she belittles those she seeks to "protect" and devalues the real experiences of genuine racism and sexual violence by lumping it all together.

Flawed characters in a flawed world do not a mysoginist make, and her misandry destroys any positive points possibly hiding within her rant. Thanks for the comment—was going to say I'd updated with extra links but you've already seen that post as well from the comment thread.

[tiredstars.livejournal.com]

I thought you might like to know that if you goodle "Joss Whedon is a rapist" this is the top result. Congratulations.

[matgb]

Heh, that's a bit weird—I'm aware that my LJ has very good Google presence (deliberately) but there's no real way of tracking search terms incoming, unlike with blogs that allow javascript to be enabled.

Wonder what else I'm randomly top result for?

[(Anonymous)]

Allecto made it abundantly clear that she was "interested in examining Joss Whedon’s work from a feminist perspective" before even watching Firefly and thus saw each scene for "a little" more than what it was. its like listening to the beatles before and after knowing the "paul is dead" theories - only without the slight evidence, and with none of the sanity. seemingly she is insecure about the female future in society and thus exaggerates the implications of many scenes to the extreme. mildly ammusing that a feminist, who I assume believes a woman deserves every right and treatment accorded to a man, refuses to allow the bad with the good (but only with women - when it comes to men, they can all go to hell for all she seems to care). I assert a counter opinion that in Firefly each character is treated as a personality rather than a gender. for what woefully small amount of evidence there is (referring to the longevity of the show), every character had the freedom to make the choices that led to their current situation. Is there any greater equality than that of choice? (exception being slaves, but thats a different discussion for a better world, and the accurately depicted, poverty infested, future ones are most certainly not them)

[(Anonymous)]

many people, all looking into the (insert noun here - recommended: greatness, wonderfulness, soul-filling-cancer curing-divine gift (all one word)) that is Firefly, many people all seeing different things.