On objects, women and the quest for equality

[matgb]

Did someone throw a bloggers gender awareness week thing and I missed the notification? Maybe I'm just noticing it a bit more, but discussions on objectification, stereotypes and dodgy attitudes seem to be everywhere I look at the moment. andrewducker reposted The Rules yesterday and the comment thread at that link is worth reading. Following that, SB made a comment to my post and expanded on it at Steve' s about the sexism of the vid I posted yesterday. She's followed it up with two posts today, asking Ever Wish You Could Switch a Part of Your Personality Off? and then as a Follow-on from the previous post:

Men are biologically designed to look upon women's bodies as sexy = men are biologically designed to look on women as things, not people?

y/n?

The latter being in response to Steve's follow on post:

these days I find myself being offended at it for all the wrong reasons. Adverts for random things that feature bikini-clad Barbie dolls and “oooh!” music don’t make me think “I really wish they’d stop objectifying women, because it’s detrimental to women’s rights and society.” They make me think “I wish they’d stop being SO STUPID and assuming I am also very STUPID and why do they think a bored-looking model can make sink cleaner sexy anyway?”

And that, essentially, is as close to my take on it as I can manage to enunciate. I'm aware, intellectually, that as a middle class(ish) white, straight(ish) male I have the inbuilt advantage of the White Male Priviledge that some feminists will explain incredibly well. I am aware that this means that I sometimes don't even notice probles that should be fixed because, ultimately, they don't really directly effect me. Of course, when I do notice problems, they tend to piss me off; the whole point about being a damn committed Liberal is that you don't believe in judging people on anything except merit, and when something other than that happens it really annoys me. If I notice it. But sometimes?

Some issues just don't cross my radar. Sometimes I just don't notice there's a problem. I'm aware that Disney films portray a very conservative idealisation of family relations that I really dislike, at times, and there are sometimes elements of the portrayal of some characters that really do get to me even in films I do like, but I can, and do, put aside those elements in favour of enjoying the good parts, the bits I like. Admittedly, I'm also an awful critic; I've tried writing reviews, some of you will have read some of them on here. I suck. Really, I do. My admiration for those such as ninebelow and nhw that can write decent, coherent reviews is very strong, it's a talent I just don't have. I think, when it comes to entertainment media, that I turn my politics off. I must do at times, as some of the stuff I like (Orson Scott Card anyone?) is the complete opposite of my views on a lot of issues. Given that, under other circumstances, I just can't turn my politics off, that's a bit weird.

But then, we all view things through the prisms that shape our worldview. To me, most issues are shaped by our system of governance. Lack of women politicians? Blame the electoral system. Crappy government reaction to a certain issue of the day? Blame the electoral system. Really badly thought through policy that plays to the lowest common denomininator tabloid press world view? Blame the electoral system. A general perception within anglophone society of black/white, with us/against us no-shades-of-grat? Guess what? That damned electoral system (specifically, Duverger's Law) again.

But when it comes to entertainment? In the video I posted yesterday, I saw four stereotypes. There was the simpering English fop with a tea drinking obsession. There was the over-dressed Frenchman with the pet poodle. There was the hard-done by and abused butler. And the was the stereotypical Lady, treated as an object to be fought over, who eventually sees sense and runs off with the butler--given the idiocy of the other two, I can't say I actually blame her. Was her portrayal sexist? Well yes. But was it more sexist, or degrading, than the portrayal of the other characters? I'd say not, myself--none of them were particularly sympathetic, and if anyone can possibly be said to be the winner of the silly duel, it's her. And of course the butler.

Of course, the bigger issue in all of this is gender equality, and maybe my male priviledge kicks in here, but of the educated and switched on young(ish) professional(ish) field that I tend to inhabit, I think that's no longer a problem of men putting down women. Does it still happen? Hell yes. Should it? Both society, and the legal system, say that sort of thing just isn't allowed. The recent study by the now merged-into-something-bigger Equal Opportunities Commission has received a lot of coverage in blogs that I read, and given that I do deliberately read some sites that challenge my world view, I've seen it soundly demolished on a number of key points, most importantly not comparing like with like. Indeed, the whole premise of the report was itself flawed, in that it generalised and lumped all women together and then compared them to all men. Other recent studies have indicated that, for example, 'out' lesbians earn significantly better than average. but that can be discredited, because aren't lesbians more likely to come from educated, switched on backgrounds and thus be in a better position to do well anyway?

Have I mentioned my distaste for categories before? Oh, I see I have. Some women face discrimination in certain fields. Some people face discrimination in certain fields--more hidebound fields, especially those dominated by older proffesionals, may have bigger individual issues. But discrimination cuts both ways. My boss in an old job once booked herself onto the training course I'd been pushing for me to go on, organised by our professional body. She told me, in my office, in front of colleagues, that it was more appropriate for her to go, because the course would be aimed at women and the company would look bad having a man in my role. Seriously. That's a good reason for getting our departments demerged (something I manged to get happen very quickly thankee muchly). My old job was women's work in oh so many ways, and my female boss resented the idea that not only did I want to do it, I was actually really damnd good at it thanks very much.

Discrimination happens. It sucks. It happens to all of us at times; I'm a bloke with long hair and a taste for black clothes. I've been denied promotions because of my hair, in a company run by hippies (the area manager was a racist git, who hated the hippies at head office)--still, I came out best, it was one of the reasons I went back to university after all. And yes, I do know that that was why I was turned down. I'm aware of the feminist theories about 'the patriarchy', and I don't disagree with them, the thing is, I don't think that that misogynistic society of old did anyone any favours, men included; I certainly wouldn't want to return to an era where men made all the important decisions; I like my smart female friends far too much for that; I really like the point that, on many many things (but not all), the woman I've fallen in love with is actually smarter than me. It's great.

I like the way that society has developed to a point where innerbrat can post that The correct answer is yes: chicks do dig Giant Robots. I just wish that, and look forward to the day, where accepting that some women do indeed like giant robot movies (and many men don't is just a given, and not have categorisations such as "blokes movie" and "chick flick". We're not there, yet. But it's a lot better than it was. Was doing a bit of Wikipedia editing a few days back (I know, I know), and read (and fixed a bit of) the article on Peter Tatchell; scarily, he only formed OutRage in 1990, how times have changed in just 17 years.

I'm not deluding myself, I've not got on rose tinted goggles; I know that discrimination exists, that sexism exists, that we're Not There Yet.

But ultimately I'm an optimist. Things are getting better, people are treated better, women in the workplace are just accepted now, and attitudes that they don't belong there are, culturally, seen as unacceptable by the overwhelming majority of the people that I come into contact with.

But then, I mostly come into contact with young(ish) professional(ish) educated types. The so-called opinion formers. something which leads me to believe that things will continue to get better, that society will continue to improve. We've got to monitor, we've got to watch, we've got to be vigilant, to make sure it doesn't regress, but the world today has changed fromt eh world in which my mother left school at 14 to become a shop girl.

And that's a damn good thing.

---

OK, that was about three times longer than planned, and I rambled, and I need to tidy it up. Gah!

OK, the other part of the post becomes a separate post. Later. Possibly. And I was going to throw in more links to studies and stuff, but, y'know, Google is your friend. Or Yahoo if your name is Iain.

Comments

[miss-s-b.livejournal.com]

I don't think any of this is simple or easy to fix; if it was, it'd be fixed by now. I just think it would be a damn sight easier and simpler to fix if people would acknowledge that the problem(s) is/are there, and to do that you have to see it, or at least be willing to look if someone points at it.

I think where the difference lies between the stereotypes in that short is that although they were ALL potentially offensive stereotypes, you're perfectly correct on that score, only ONE of those stereotypes is still a group which is actively repressed by mainstream society.

And yes, white privileged middle class professional =/= mainstream society. Not that I see you as part of that class anyway. And I don't think, from what happened at Connect, that you'd be hugely comfortable being shoehorned in there anyway.

And I'm not smarter than you; I'm just better educated. You said yourself your school was crap; mine wasn't.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_grimtales_/]

SB's reaction fucked me off something chronic but for reasons you're aware of I didn't really have the energy to put it into acerbic words.

Personally I'm fucking sick of having to take it on the chin for the actions of previous generations and having to tiptoe around the unreasonable chips many people have on their shoulders - often without much reason.

There is a great deal in media now that depicts men as 'lovable oafs' or beefcake, yet you don't see the same kind of strident reactions from men to that, that you see from women to any similar treatment of women. We seem to be expected to just sit and take it, even if (as modern 'sensitive' men) we don't deserve to be kicked around.

Yeah, I like to look at boobies on occasion, whoop de doo that's the way I'm genetically programmed and if men weren't attracted to women - and vice versa - none of us would be here. To paraphrase Freud, sometimes a cleavage is just a cleavage and who is really being exploited if they're using that to try and sell me products eh?

And don't even get me bloody started on that MJ statuette nonsense.

If I can deal with friggin' Sheila's Wheels car insurance adverts women can cope with a bit of harmless totty now and again.

The war's over, its a draw, things are just still shaking themselves down. I'm not priviledged just because I'm male and white, indeed these things have stood against me.

Ah buggrit, bedtime...

[miss-s-b.livejournal.com]

* sigh *

I'm sorry if I upset you. I have no problem with men liking to look at boobies. If I did, I wouldn't have this icon. My problem is with when women are depicted as JUST boobies and nothing else, and yes, I have the same problem with men being depicted as beefcake or whatever as well.

I'm sorry to hear that you don't have a problem with Sheila's Wheels, because I bloody do. It's another example of the "paint it pink and women will buy it" thing that really annoys me; Sheila's Wheels isn't better value for women, but it's marketed as though it is in the hopes that women are too stupid to actually check...

* shrug *

And yes, discrimination against white men DOES happen, you're right. I don't see why that makes discrimination against women or anyone else more acceptable though? IMHO people should be judged on their merits WHATEVER their gender or race or whatever. Discrimination against you is just as wrong as discrimination against me.

Hopefully I haven't wound you up even more with this post...

[http://users.livejournal.com/_grimtales_/]

RE: Sheilas, it's the 'women only' aspect - you know, the actual substance of the matter, that is annoying as hell.

[miss-s-b.livejournal.com]

I agree with you completely. It shouldn't be allowed, and WOULDN'T be allowed if it was the other way around, and serves only to make people think that women are afforded unreasonable privilege when in fact we aren't (as I said, the service isn't actually any better value at all).

But, yeah, thank you for calling me an imbecile. I appreciate that.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_grimtales_/]

I don't SEE the word imbecile above, but I did detect a note of hypocrisy.

And quite right, it wouldn't be allowed the other way around. Nor would male-only exercise clubs or swimming groups. There's a horrible double standard there.

Try being a man wanting to work in chidcare or primary education for that matter.

[miss-s-b.livejournal.com]

Twas on the icon. Still is.

And again, you're right, there is anti-male discrimination, particularly in the so-called "caring" professions, partly because of hysteria about paedophiles, and the mistaken belief that men are more likely to be abusive than women.

But again, ALL discrimination of this sort is wrong. All of it. Against men, against women, against black people, against white people, against little green aliens if they are the best person for the job. The fact that discrimination against men exists doesn't weaken the point that discrimination is wrong and hurts people, it strengthens it.

For the record, I'd never go to a women-only exercise group or swimming club; partly because, like you, I don't agree with the very concept, and partly because of the sort of women who DO go to them.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_grimtales_/]

That's my default icon.

If someone's actually getting harmed or actually discriminated against then by all means, knock yourself out, but humour relies upon shock and stereotype to a large extent (An Englishman an Irishman and a Scotsman walk into a bar...) and making things 'correct' isn't funny untless you're lampooning correctness.

Let people enjoy their visuals and their jokes without being hypersensitive, that just fulfills yet another stereotype.

[miss-s-b.livejournal.com]

Ahh, so you call EVERYONE an imbecile. OK.

And, I never said that people couldn't enjoy it, or that I didn't want people to enjoy it. In fact, if you READ my post, the thing that was upsetting me was the fact that I wished *I* could enjoy it, like everyone else.

* sigh *

I don't want everything to be correct and staid and dull and boring, and I don't want to censor anyone or make anything "unallowable". I don't want to ban anything. I object to the very concept of banning things. But I'm bang alongside reasonable criticism, and I thank you for providing me with some.

I think, possibly, that I would have been less upset by the animation if I had actually found it funny/unusual/new, rather than a tired rehash of things I had seen a thousand times before. And therein lies the danger with using stereotypes as a basis for humour - it gets tired and old very easily.

But I stand by what I said about the quality of the animation. It was very well made.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_grimtales_/]

Its a DOOMified version of 'talk to the hand 'cause the face ain't listening'. C'est tout, and, to be fair five minutes watching the news should avail most anyone with an IQ above room temperature that most of the world is full of imbeciles.

I'm beginning to notice a pattern of offence-taking emerging here.

[miss-s-b.livejournal.com]

"ah, so you call everyone an imbecile, OK" was amused withdrawal of offence, sorry if that wasn't clear.

The joys of text-based communication, I forget you can't see me smiling.

Pax?

[http://users.livejournal.com/_grimtales_/]

Pax is better than waiting for it to reach Paxo.

[miss-s-b.livejournal.com]

PaxMAN, on the other hand... RAWR.

[matgb]

Down girl...

[miss-s-b.livejournal.com]

Awwwww!

(and it looks like we have a winner over on my post...)

[http://users.livejournal.com/_grimtales_/]

There we part company again, though I like his attack-dog interviews.

[miss-s-b.livejournal.com]

LMAO I never for a second expected us to have the same sort of taste in crushes ;)

[pmoodie.livejournal.com]

I'm a lot like you I think, in that I don't tend to notice that there's a problem in a lot of cases, unless something is pushing really offensive stereotypes. Of course we all have issues that we're more sensitive to and we'll pick up on things that touch on those. My pet hate is racism, and I tend to pick up on racist stereotypes in films/TV more quickly than some people do. For some people it's gender stereotypes, and they'll react to those fatser and more aggressively than I will.

Sadly, I think stereotypes are here to stay, in some form at least, because I think that's how the human mind works. We have a sort of mental filing system that helps us navigate through life, and that's based on past experience and what we've "learned" about people, things etc. We automatically make certain assumptions subonsciously, based on our first perceptions, so we'll be able react quickly if we have to. It's not always a negative thing - if I see a dog that looks like another dog that bit me, then I'll tend to be wary of it in case I get bitten again. If I've been beaten up repeatedly by guys in sportswear, I'll tend to be on my guard when I see another guy in sportswear coming my way. It's a useful survival skill!

But the unfortunate side-effect is that we often make inaccurate assumptions about people and things based on the limited evidence of our senses.

What we should be aiming for is a world where those subconscious impressions don't affect the way we consciously react to and behave towards other people, and I think we're getting there but it's a long hard struggle.